[Bryson]

Here's an interesting example. I was engaged today in the classic "Macs are very expensive" argument with some someone, so I did a little research.

All prices in Canadian Dollars:

A base model 15" MacBook Pro, 2.53Ghz, 4GB RAM, 15" WXGA+ screen, Wireless 802.11a/g/n, Bluetooth, Integrated camera, 250GB 5400rpm HD, NVidia 9400m, backlit keyboard, 7-hour battery, costs

$1799

A Dell Latitude E6500 (a very mid-range laptop, arguably not as nice as the MBP, but whatever) 2.53Ghz, 4GB RAM, 15" WXGA+ screen, Wireless 802.11a/g/n, bluetooth, integrated camera, 250GB 7200rpm HD, NVidia Quadro NVS160m (approximately the same performance as the 9400m), backlit keyboard, extended battery (no hours give, just 9 cell-vs 6-cell, anecdotal reports suggest it last about 3-5 hours) costs:

$2283

Arguably, the HD is better on the PC (no 5400rpm choice at the 250GB range). But nothing else is - the case on the MBP is clearly superior, and we haven't even mentioned software yet.

So no more talk of "Apple Tax" please. It simply isn't true.

[Luca]

One example one way or another isn't enough to confirm or deny the existence of an Apple/Dell "tax." You could easily make a Mac look way more expensive than an equivalent Dell by just configuring it with the largest amount of BTO RAM and hard drive space, since Apple overcharges for those things so much.

However, I would say that in general, pre-built computers all look overpriced once you've built your own. And I've never liked laptops.

[Partial]

As a Slickdealer I'm noticing is you're neglecting sales and coupons. I've seen really, really good Dell product deals on there.

Take this, for example:

http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/27573

Not a great laptop by any means. Mac is clearly superior. But, is it nearly 4x superior? I think you'd have a hard time convincing people that it is.

The Mac tax is for the entry level systems. The pro stuff is fairly priced (for the most part) compared to other high end stuff. Most company's luxury offerings are typically over priced. A grand is a lot to get into the MacBook business.

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by Bryson Here's an interesting example. I was engaged today in the classic "Macs are very expensive" argument with some someone, so I did a little research. ... Arguably, the HD is better on the PC (no 5400rpm choice at the 250GB range). But nothing else is - the case on the MBP is clearly superior, and we haven't even mentioned software yet. So no more talk of "Apple Tax" please. It simply isn't true.

I came to the same conclusion recently when comparing 13" laptops. It wasn't a scientific study but I went to the websites of Sony, Dell, Toshiba, Asus, Acer, HP and Lenovo and looked at their prices on a stock computer that was as close as possible to the 13" MBP. Most of the time they were not quite as good as the white MacBook, but priced way above the MBP. Again, it was highly un-scientific, and didn't take into account the fact that they're probably rarely sold at MSRP. But in every case the Macs were far better value, not even taking into account all of the little details you get on a Mac that get forgotten.

My conclusion is that for any default configuration of Mac available, it's probably much better value than any default configuration available from any other brand. Even if you just want to run Windows on it.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Bryson I was engaged today in the classic "Macs are very expensive" argument with some someone, so I did a little research. [...]

Originally Posted by joveblue I came to the same conclusion recently when comparing 13" laptops. It wasn't a scientific study but I went to the websites of Sony, Dell, Toshiba, Asus, Acer, HP and Lenovo and looked at their prices on a stock computer that was as close as possible to the 13" MBP.

How many would-be customers are looking for the exact (or close to) configuration as one of Apple's units? No, most people don't care if the off-the-shelf 13" Dell notebook doesn't have the exact specs as the 13" Apple notebook and most certainly aren't going to try to build matching units.

This is what most shoppers see. To even consider a Mac laptop costs twice as much as the competition.



Most people aren't spec-whores who will try to match the CPU, drive, etc. across competitors. They're just looking for roughly a certain type of machine that fits within a budget.

Sorry, guys, but I really have to side with Luca (and Partial) on this one. Just because there are a few instances where the "Apple tax" isn't pronounced, that doesn't really mean anything to the general perception that Apple hardware is more expensive. Entry-level price is a far more important factor there than any pick-and-choose examples will have.

Originally Posted by Bryson So no more talk of "Apple Tax" please.

Agreed, but not because it isn't true.

[Bryson]

The issue is that many people say "Apple computers cost more for a similarly specced machine" which isn't true - the real issue is that Apple won't go as low on the original spec.

That Dell I used as an example, in the standard config, has no BT, an 80Gb (!) HD, 2GB RAM, wireless b/g only, no camera etc etc etc.

Yes, starting price matters to consumers. But that doesn't mean they're making rational decisions. And it's not like they're features they won't want to use.

[joveblue]

Like regular taxes, you actually happen to get something back for the "Apple tax". Most people forget that about taxes :/.

For what you get in the price of a Mac, They're actually really good value. If you don't want exactly what you get, however, it mightn't be such good value.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by Brad [...] Most people aren't spec-whores who will try to match the CPU, drive, etc. across competitors. They're just looking for roughly a certain type of machine that fits within a budget. Sorry, guys, but I really have to side with Luca (and Partial) on this one. Just because there are a few instances where the "Apple tax" isn't pronounced, that doesn't really mean anything to the general perception that Apple hardware is more expensive. Entry-level price is a far more important factor there than any pick-and-choose examples will have. [...]

Maybe, but my own view is that if Apple were to put out something like that $399 special, they would be heavily criticized, including on these Forums. Apple has shown a commitment to the end-user experience that a computer like that likely cannot deliver in terms of specs, software integration, initial build quality, long-term reliability, and customer support. Not that Apple is perfect on these fronts, but I think that they are pretty good.

I agree that quite a few computer users will look mostly just at the price. Provided the laptop has a keyboard and a screen, otherwise ‘looks’ credible, and actually turns on a lot of people’s attitude is, “Why pay more? – This is the same thing – Look at all those morons who spent more money”. I know people like that who were disappointed with their purchases. And the comparison for them was not with Apple (which they would never even try), but with other PCs: “Hey, why is this thing falling apart already? Why can’t I get any useful customer support? How come this PC does not work like the one at the office or at my brother-in-law’s place?” Maybe the answer is that the computer at the office or at their brother in laws was a reasonably well-built $1500 machine, while the $399 computer is a POS.

There a lot of cheap POS PCs out there. Apple has decided not to go that route, and I am grateful for that.

[Miko]

Brad's screen captures say it all. This all comes down to perceived value vs. real value nothing more, mixed with the economic situation and the needs of the average users. Dells or PC's are always going to look like your getting more or the same for less.

That's why you can't compare Macs to PC's. Apple's products provide the most value for the price and as pointed out a Dell equivalent cost the same if not more and still is of lesser value. Let's not forget Triple booting capability out the box on the Macs, that can't be had on any PC.

[alcimedes]

I think what it really boils down to is if you want a Windows laptop you can pick on of 761* different models, and one of them will be what you want.

If price is a primary consideration for you, there will probably be 700+ that are cheaper than the cheapest Mac.

Apple sells 4, 5 laptops? None of them low end.



* approximate number, internet accurate

[Moogs]

Brad's right. Perception is reality unfortunately but you know... ultimately, who gives a shit? Apple is kicking ass, and the people who have bought their stuff / taken a chance on it, know the value they got vs. any bargain POS PC they've ever bought, and the headaches / time wasting that goes with it. Apple is winning millions of new customers every year, and a lot of those will eventually start buying Macs. Everything is on a good path.

Not to say Apple couldn't afford to drop their prices a little across the board (they could, especially the Pro machines) but otherwise I'm not worried about the intellectual giants who scoff at Apple because of the "initial glance factor" of the pricing.