[709]

The Ive thing has me a bit worried. One guy in charge of the entire Apple experience? I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. Obviously I'm a fan of the hardware, but Industrial Design and User Interface Design couldn't be further apart. Just because he's a great designer doesn't automatically make him a great designer of *everything* - I hope that my trepidation is misplaced.

All the other shit I'm on board with.

[Dorian Gray]

Poor Eddy Cue.

[Mac+]

Yeah, I know.

I'm sending the wolf. Shit man, that's all you had to say.

[709]

And Apple buys Nokia in 3, 2, 1....

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by Brad Forstall is the one who had been behind the horrible skeuomorphic designs in recent years, right? Then good riddance.

I must say that I kind of like that design approach, as long as it does not get in the way of functionality. Skeuomorphic designs give that user experience some texture and real-world familiarity.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by Chinney I must say that I kind of like that design approach, as long as it does not get in the way of functionality. Skeuomorphic designs give that user experience some texture and real-world familiarity.

As long as....

But it does in many cases cited by the haters. I use the calendar app on iOS and Mac multiple times a day and it's annoying to say the least. They work alright, but the stupid page curl, for example, is time consuming and a waste of energy. Of course, there are no good options as alternatives - believe me, I've tried many.

[Chinney]

But there is no reason that ornamentation features have to get in the way of functionality, properly done. I have no particular complaints about iOS design in that regard.

My favourite has to be the way books look on the iPad, although I like Kobo's implementation even better than that on iBooks. The design has a real 'paper page' feel to it, including in turning pages, and even down to the semi-translucent effect where you can see the print of the reverse-side page through the 'paper'.

[addabox]

Hmmm, NYT has an article up that implies the breaking point had to do with Forstall refusing to sign a letter of apology regarding Maps, and left it to Cook to shoulder the blame:

While tensions between Mr. Forstall and other executives had been mounting for some time, a recent incident appeared to play a major role in his dismissal. After an outcry among iPhone customers about bugs in the company’s new mobile maps service, Mr. Forstall refused to sign a public apology over the matter, dismissing the problems as exaggerated, according to people with knowledge of the situation who declined to be named discussing confidential matters. Instead, Timothy D. Cook, Apple’s chief executive, in September signed the apology letter to Apple customers over maps.

Interesting, if true. It's like he has the arrogance of Jobs without the fiendish devotion to quality, which is a pretty untenable combo.

Also, again from the Times article, doesn't sound like he had made too many friends in Cupertino:

A senior Apple employee who asked not to be named said Mr. Forstall had also incurred the ire of other executives after inserting himself into product development that went beyond his role at the company. One person in touch with Apple executives said the mood of people at the company was largely positive about Mr. Forstall’s departure. “This was better than the Giants winning the World Series,” he said. “People are really excited.”

[psmith2.0]

Ouch.

Sounds like he was just a pill. But it's hard to ever know what really goes on. You kinda take everything, all sides, with a grain of salt. Especially as it's happening. The truth, eventually, works its way out.

But assuming all this is true (he wasn't liked, he pissed people off, folks are glad to see him go, not signing that apology letter was the "final straw", his arrogance that sprang from being Robin to Jobs' Batman for years and now that Batman is no longer around people are tired of his act, etc.) why in the hell would he want to stick around as an "advisor" to the guy who sacked him? And why would the sacker, Tim Cook, want Forstall, the sackee hanging around for another year (or however long it turns out to be), "advising"?

Advising on what, for that matter? If he had anything worth saying/giving advice on, seems he'd still be with the company, wouldn't he?

"You're fired. But stick around, we could use your input and guidance...".



Or is that just corporate-speak for "he's already gone, but we gotta dress it up so it doesn't sound so ugly and contentious"?

I'm not wired-in to that particular culture, so I don't know where the PR (and PC) bullshit begins and ends in these sorts of statements...



I'd enjoy a little more honesty/transparency in these things.

"He was issued a 'Go Screw Yourself' mug by HR, hog-tied and carried out by security, given a smack in the parking lot and sent on his way."

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Chinney I must say that I kind of like that design approach, as long as it does not get in the way of functionality. Skeuomorphic designs give that user experience some texture and real-world familiarity.

But it frequently does "get the way of functionality", by necessity. If implemented well, it can indeed have the advantages you name; for example, if the page edges shown in the design of iBooks for iOS gave any sense of position within the book, it would help you navigate, but alas, they're always the same and purely there to look good (and useless). If implemented poorly, a mess like Lion Address Book is the result; its predecessor may not have been pretty, but worked much better (they've fixed some of that in Mountain Lion.) In most cases, they don't implement it well at all.

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Or is that just corporate-speak for "he's already gone, but we gotta dress it up so it doesn't sound so ugly and contentious"?

One word: yes.



...

[Brave Ulysses]

nearly 20 years of service and serving as the executive in charge of Apple's 100 billion dollar iPhone business and you get sent off with a single line in a press release.


clearly the fall out was huge..... not even a kind word or two for the guy.

[screensaver400]

Originally Posted by drewprops One word: yes.

Agreed. Though he probably could be called upon to answer specific questions during the transition. I'm sure he has a lot of internal knowledge of his tasks... Someone else can't just step in on a single day.

[Brave Ulysses]

I'm troubled that this was an all or none decision in regard to Forstall though. Forstall HAS been the director of everything iOS and iPhone since day 1.... well, before day 1. His decisions directly lead to Apple's success. In addition, he is one of the guys I have seen on stage who actually carries forward that Jobs trait of actually LOVING what he is doing. it was always clear. He really was a fan of what he was showing and doing and his work and clearly loved Apple and its success. Power may have gotten to him and he may have had some management failures but why does that mean he can't remain in a different role? Is that just how business is? Was that his mindset?

Seems unfortunate. Like I said, I welcome the change because I think the iOS has had some misguided efforts recently and by all accounts he is dick, but jeez... the guy headed some incredible successes as well.

[Brave Ulysses]

For better or worse, Ives' new position may as well be called the Steve Jobs position. He seemingly has final say and review on all hardware and software.

[addabox]

I wonder how long before we start to see the results of this shift in shipping software? Will there be an update that rips the skeuomorphic stuff right out?

[psmith2.0]

There must be enough things behind the scenes/under the surface that we'll never know about that brought all this on. Because, yes...he was right there in the thick of all this, and playing a key role in all this success and acclaim these past five-plus years since the iPhone has existed.

I guess once you're at the top of your ladder/game and you foul up (or alienate those around you to a certain point), the only place to go is "out"? Someone like this probably isn't going to "step down" to a lesser position. And even stepping sideways into a created position (Director of Things i, or whatever) would seem like "punishment" or an insult?

Big day for Apple. Not sure if it's "good" or "bad". But in light of some recent events, my gut says "this is all goign to work out fine. Look at the ones left behind to take up Forstall's role! No slouches.

Now that retail goober...who knows why he was hired to begin with, based on all I've ever heard or read. And even a modern, low-maintenance haircut wasn't enough to give him that "fits in" look. He just seemed like someone's brother-in-law who accidentally fell into the gig. It bugged me from day one that he was an outsider. All I kept thinking was "how is he going to be fully part of this philosophy and perspective that you could only get from being at the company, and close to these top guys, for a good while?"

I thought this was doomed from the get-go. I can't believe he lasted this long, truth be told.

Apple cannot dick around with their retail store vibe/experience. It's the envy of the retail industry, by all accounts. Once things start to go south there, and word gets out that it's being run like a better-furnished/lit CompUSA or Best Buy, that's going to really hurt them. If this guy wasn't doing the job - or, worse, was doing things counter to the way Apple Retail has been working for a decade - then, yeah...he needed to get bounced.

Someone said upthread...a company like this, you hire/recruit/promote from within. From those who are steeped in the culture and who "think Apple". I don't think your typical business type is wired that way. I think you either get it or you don't. I don't think a lot of these guys at Apple would have an easy go at other places, just as I think a lot of typical business/corporate types wouldn't fit in easily with Apple.

Just seems to me that it would be easier to find someone already within Apple, who loves and truly gets it all, to place in charge of their stores. You bring in an outsider and there's no telling what you could wind up dealing with.

I think this little scenario kinda showed that.

Is JCPenney doing worth a damn these days? They could always make a play to get Johnson back, couldn't they? Maybe he realizes other places aren't worth the time and hassle of trying to "fix"? I thought it was odd that he left Apple for JCPenney. But, then again, if you're wired a certain way, you appreciate a good challenge and a change of scenery.

Somewhere Steve is watching all this and he's either chuckling to himself or he's livid.



"Good grief, guys...I've barely been gone one year and it's like an episode of Saved by the Bell down there...pull your shit together, you're embarrassing me!"

[drewprops]

Forstall could of course write a book at some point.

...

[psmith2.0]

iQuit
...Memories of the Loop
by Scotty F.

I'd buy it. As long as Walter Isaacson comes nowhere near it, it should be a great read. *ducks*

[Yontsey]

Would he want to write a book about it though? He's got to be worth somewhere around $40-50+ million after cashing out his stock options this past summer. Plus he's still young so he's going to want to work somewhere else I assume in the future. Doesn't reflect well on you when you air dirty laundry about your previous employer then go out for another high ranked position.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 iQuit ...Memories of the Loop by Scotty F. I'd buy it. As long as Walter Isaacson comes nowhere near it, it should be a great read. *ducks*

I like it. Sold.

[Brave Ulysses]

stolen from a macrumors poster (of all places!):

If you think Jobs was a smart guy and that he had good judgement in people, there must be a reason he liked Forstall so much. Maybe with Forstall gone, Apple will be run by nerds, just like all the other companies.

That's the part I can't quite get over. Jobs believed in this guy for 20 years.... and Jobs' personality somehow tolerated Forstall's personality even though by all accounts it seems like it would be a personality that would clash with Steve's (for being too similar).

[Xaqtly]

We obviously don't and can't know all the details, but if the general consensus is true - that Forstall was responsible for the majority of the high profile blunders as of late, and that he had serious personality conflicts - then honestly Apple is probably going to be better off without him. I'm guessing Jobs' presence had a lot to do with reining Forstall in, and without Jobs around maybe he figured he could be more of an ass with less consequence.

In any case if the reason Forstall is getting the boot is at least partially because of iOS maps and Siri, then obviously Cook and the rest of the seniors recognize that there was a problem with them, and are aiming to cut that off at the source. That can only be a good thing where we the customers are concerned.

As far as Ives taking over software in addition to hardware, from the articles I've read it seems like Ives disliked the skeuomorphic stuff Forstall was insisting on, and again, that can only be a good thing where we're concerned. Ives doesn't need to know how to design UIs, he only needs to know what looks good and what doesn't, and I think he's perfectly capable of determining that. Moreso than Forstall was, IMO.

The more I learn about all of this, the more I am inclined to think Forstall was actually responsible for a lot of the little things I've disliked about Apple recently, and that firing him is a bold move by Cook, and one that needed to be made. I'll be interested to see how Ives can clean up iOS and OS X.

What's even more interesting to me is that it never occurred to me that Forstall might be a problem within Apple until today, when all this information surfaced. This truly is becoming Cook's Apple now.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses stolen from a macrumors poster (of all places!): That's the part I can't quite get over. Jobs believed in this guy for 20 years.... and Jobs' personality somehow tolerated Forstall's personality even though by all accounts it seems like it would be a personality that would clash with Steve's (for being too similar).

Forstall would most likely still seen his ass thrown out after what Jobs did to the MobileMe team after that products successful launch......

Or Forstall would have signed the letter because he would rather have hurt pride than face the wrath of Jobs.

[Messiahtosh]

This feels like Sculley forcing Jobs out 2.0.

[psmith2.0]

If Forstall goes and starts a cool company that, 20-30 years from now, proves to be a major player and beloved worldwide for their products and vibe...yeah. Kinda early to make that call just yet. Gonna wait a decade or two and see if what happens. Although it would be hilarious if he started the world's greatest mapping/GPS/navigation company!

Otherwise, it was just a guy in the tech industry who lost his job for various reasons we may, or may not, fully understand or have the inside scoop on (he could've been an unhinged, unrepentant ass-grabber/serial sexual harrasser and finally groped the wrong person). The world may never know all that went down.

That's probably not the case, but it could be any number of things. I'm guessing it was job- and personality-related, but it's just one of those things we'll probably never really hear about. Big companies, NDA's, PR concerns, reputations needing to be upheld, etc. can weave quite a web of silence and secrecy.

One thing's for sure...I bet this has come as quite a blow. I kinda feel bad for the guy. To be so publicly tossed from such a high-profile gig, and, as mentioned upthread, to have it done in such a matter-of-fact way that didn't extend any praise to his role and efforts...ouch. There's something to be read into that, surely.

If I'm Forstall, I'm at the nearest pub on about my 27th beer and bending the bartender's ear all night long.

There's getting tossed. Then there's getting tossed from Apple. That's gotta hurt, especially if you feel like so many of these wildly popular products were your baby and that has been your life the past six-plus years!

Moral of the story: even in success and fortune, be humble and gracious. Make friends, not enemies. And don't ever think of yourself as untouchable and indispensable. Truth is, none of us are. You alienate/piss off enough people, or have enough of an abrasive, off-putting personality to where it's "you against everyone else"...you're going down at some point. If you become a roadblock to progress, harmony and all that, talented or not, sometimes it's just easier to toss your butt and find easier people to work with.

[Messiahtosh]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 There must be enough things behind the scenes/under the surface that we'll never know about that brought all this on. Because, yes...he was right there in the thick of all this, and playing a key role in all this success and acclaim these past five-plus years since the iPhone has existed. I guess once you're at the top of your ladder/game and you foul up (or alienate those around you to a certain point), the only place to go is "out"? Someone like this probably isn't going to "step down" to a lesser position. And even stepping sideways into a created position (Director of Things i, or whatever) would seem like "punishment" or an insult? Big day for Apple. Not sure if it's "good" or "bad". But in light of some recent events, my gut says "this is all goign to work out fine. Look at the ones left behind to take up Forstall's role! No slouches. Now that retail goober...who knows why he was hired to begin with, based on all I've ever heard or read. And even a modern, low-maintenance haircut wasn't enough to give him that "fits in" look. He just seemed like someone's brother-in-law who accidentally fell into the gig. It bugged me from day one that he was an outsider. All I kept thinking was "how is he going to be fully part of this philosophy and perspective that you could only get from being at the company, and close to these top guys, for a good while?" I thought this was doomed from the get-go. I can't believe he lasted this long, truth be told. Apple cannot dick around with their retail store vibe/experience. It's the envy of the retail industry, by all accounts. Once things start to go south there, and word gets out that it's being run like a better-furnished/lit CompUSA or Best Buy, that's going to really hurt them. If this guy wasn't doing the job - or, worse, was doing things counter to the way Apple Retail has been working for a decade - then, yeah...he needed to get bounced. Someone said upthread...a company like this, you hire/recruit/promote from within. From those who are steeped in the culture and who "think Apple". I don't think your typical business type is wired that way. I think you either get it or you don't. I don't think a lot of these guys at Apple would have an easy go at other places, just as I think a lot of typical business/corporate types wouldn't fit in easily with Apple. Just seems to me that it would be easier to find someone already within Apple, who loves and truly gets it all, to place in charge of their stores. You bring in an outsider and there's no telling what you could wind up dealing with. I think this little scenario kinda showed that. Is JCPenney doing worth a damn these days? They could always make a play to get Johnson back, couldn't they? Maybe he realizes other places aren't worth the time and hassle of trying to "fix"? I thought it was odd that he left Apple for JCPenney. But, then again, if you're wired a certain way, you appreciate a good challenge and a change of scenery. Somewhere Steve is watching all this and he's either chuckling to himself or he's livid. "Good grief, guys...I've barely been gone one year and it's like an episode of Saved by the Bell down there...pull your shit together, you're embarrassing me!"

JCP stores look nicer now, but they still contain most of the same junk items.

[psmith2.0]

I haven't been inside one in quite a few years, so I wasn't sure if there had been some sort of 180-degree turnaround in style, vibe, merchandise, displays, etc. since Johnson took over. But it's hard to imagine such a store being anything other than what it's always been. I never thought they were going to morph into some sort of IKEA type of thing. Or, if they did, it would be surface-only. Can you imagine the logistics of a complete top-down do-over of such an old, established brand and chain?

I know it happens, but I wouldn't even know where to start!

[psmith2.0]

This just hit me...does this mean Ive transitions to some sort of on-stage role/presence at WWDC and these standalone press events? He's always in the crowd, and he's participated on a handful of occasions (taking a phone call or a FaceTime call from Steve). But does he now start to join Cook, Schiller and the others and becoming more of a "face of Apple" figure himself now?

I've often wondered how he would do in such a role. He's always the same in those product videos, but I was impressed by how he came across, and spoke, during that memorial service for Jobs at Apple HQ last year.

But that may not be his favorite thing to do, and I know the prep work to put on a flawless, smooth presentation is something that would take time away from his (new) duties and responsibilities.

My gut says "no, he'll stay in the front row as an observer".

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh This feels like Sculley forcing Jobs out 2.0.

Nah. Schiller is great (why does everyone have a hate-on for him?). Cue and Federighi seem competent. Ive I'm not sure about when it comes to UI design. Sculley 2.0 this is not. I'll be concerned when Schiller is gone.