User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » Third-Party Products »

Intel's 7nm is Broken


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Intel's 7nm is Broken
Thread Tools
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2020-07-23, 20:11

Apple's move to its own iron seems even more prescient today, as Intel announces a big delay in reaching their 7nm process.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/in...d-expectations


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2020-07-24, 11:08

Better title, Intel is broken, has no idea what to do. Sounds like they may even outsource to TSMC for some future production. Nothing wrong with that, just about all the big chip makers do.

The bigger news this week is that Nvidia might buy ARM. Nvidia is not exactly known for having a good relationship with Apple. What if they refuse to license ARM to Apple in the future? That could kill AX Macs before they even launch.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-07-24, 12:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
What if they refuse to license ARM to Apple in the future? That could kill AX Macs before they even launch.
The SEC is going to go hard on anyone who wants to buy ARM. No way that joint is getting sold off without some serious anti-competition contracts in place.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2020-07-24, 15:28

Nvidia doesn’t operate in Apples areas of business, (Phones, consumer computers etc) so how would it be anti-competitive?
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2020-07-25, 06:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Nvidia doesn’t operate in Apples areas of business, (Phones, consumer computers etc) so how would it be anti-competitive?
Nvidia doesn't operate in consumer computers? I think the Nintendo Switch and quite a few gaming PCs would beg to differ.

And yes, if Nvidia were to buy ARM and then immediately restrict licensing, that could be seen as an antitrust-relevant move, as far too many companies rely on ARM licensing right now.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2020-07-25, 08:48

What I meant is that Nvidia does not sell computers or phones themselves. They sell GPUs, but that has nothing to do with ARM. It would only be a good anti-trust case if Nvidia suddenly cut off all licences and started shipping those devices themselves. It’s unlikely that Nvidia would cut off every ARM license, there are thousands of them. The poor relationship could come back to haunt Apple, and I doubt cutting off one license could constitute as being anti-competitive.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2020-07-25, 15:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
What I meant is that Nvidia does not sell computers or phones themselves.
Yeah, sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
They sell GPUs, but that has nothing to do with ARM.
They do sell ARM CPUs. As I mentioned, the Switch has one. Some cars do. And if this rumor is true, they're clearly expanding on that idea.

(There was also that brief period where they sold chipsets — nForce. Then Intel started integrating more and more of the chipset into the CPU package, and cut off Nvidia's options. What if they were to one-up Intel and sell an ARM-based CPU for PCs?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
It would only be a good anti-trust case if Nvidia suddenly cut off all licences and started shipping those devices themselves.
I don't follow how you figure that. Antitrust doesn't have to revolve around a single market.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2020-07-25, 16:45

What I am saying, and you clearly don't seem understand, is that it would be highly unlikely for SEC to go after NVIDIA if all they did was not renew Apple's ARM license, if they didn't do the same to anyone else. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Unless NVIDIA plans to ship with ARM Windows or a custom Linux package, neither of which will appeal to a large number of consumers, I doubt they would try to go it their own on PCs.

I'm aware of the chipset history, and how horrible NVIDIA chipsets were.

I highly doubt SEC would even raise a finger to help Apple, since Apple isn't eaxtly on the US Governments list of most loved companies. Apple's already dealing with several government (US and otherwise) anti-competitive cases on their own.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2020-07-27, 03:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
What I am saying, and you clearly don't seem understand, is that it would be highly unlikely for SEC to go after NVIDIA if all they did was not renew Apple's ARM license, if they didn't do the same to anyone else. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
I understand just fine. I just think kscherer's scenario is quite plausible.

(I think you mean the FTC, not the SEC?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Unless NVIDIA plans to ship with ARM Windows or a custom Linux package, neither of which will appeal to a large number of consumers, I doubt they would try to go it their own on PCs.
We'll see. Microsoft+Qualcomm is clearly giving it a shot. Could be the right moment for Nvidia to join in; they have more interesting cores than Qualcomm does (but it's not clear if they're interested in shipping them at volume).

I'm aware of the chipset history, and how horrible NVIDIA chipsets were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I highly doubt SEC would even raise a finger to help Apple, since Apple isn't eaxtly on the US Governments list of most loved companies. Apple's already dealing with several government (US and otherwise) anti-competitive cases on their own.
Well, playing favors like that would be something the FTC OIG might be interested in.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-12-03, 12:22

I figure this is a decent spot for this. Apparently Intel's 3nm process is also broken, and they're now sort of admitting defeat by approaching TSMC to manufacture their next-generation GPU, because they don't know how to do it themselves.

Is Intel going to become a chip designer rather than a manufacturer? Are they seriously still trying to court Apple's business to fab Apple's A/M-series chips, when they can't even fab their own?

What is wrong with Intel, and are they too late to the next game? I mean, is it possible that Intel will follow Nokia, RIM/Blackberry, HP and other big-name companies out the door? They just don't seem to have their act together.

Yes, they have their high-end stuff, but that's about to become a big, ol' niche as the market drifts into ARM's corner of the field. Even Microsoft seems to know the writing is on the wall and has Windows running smoothly on ARM chips. With Qualcomm and Samsung pushing hard, and Nvidia trying desperately to corner the entire ARM market, it's clear what the future holds. And, does that future have a place for X86?

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2021-12-03, 12:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
The SEC is going to go hard on anyone who wants to buy ARM. No way that joint is getting sold off without some serious anti-competition contracts in place.
Prescient! https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/02...m-acquisition/
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2021-12-03, 12:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I figure this is a decent spot for this. Apparently Intel's 3nm process is also broken, and they are now admitting defeat by approaching TSMC to manufacture their next-generation GPU, because they don't know how to do it themselves.

Is Intel going to become a chip designer rather than a manufacturer? Are they seriously still trying to court Apple's business to fab Apple's A/M-series chips, when they can't even fab their own?

What is wrong with Intel, and are they too late to the next game?
I wouldn't put too much stock into anything DigiTimes says.

As for what is wrong with Intel: they're a large company that can course-correct very slowly. They have been in some areas (Tiger Lake isn't that bad, and Alder Lake could end up beating M1 in some areas), but much of the damage from complacency has been done.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-12-03, 12:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
and Alder Lake could end up beating M1 in some areas), but much of the damage from complacency has been done.
Being able to beat the M1 "in some areas" misses the point. There isn't another chip out there that can do what the M1 does inside of a notebook enclosure running entirely on battery. Intel has already lost this particular game, regardless their X86 architecture's future road map. Yes, they can stuff Alder Lake into a huge tower and blow a ton of air over it and beat anything (other than, perhaps, AMD's highest-end stuff), but that's where the computer-puck was, not where it's going.

Apple wants something like M1 Pro/Max inside a not-very-distant iPhone! Intel can't do anything even remotely close to that. Perhaps ever!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2021-12-03, 12:36

If I ever ran/headed up a huge corporation, I'd like to think that I'd take all these lessons and cautionary tales from others, over the decades, to try and avoid that same fate...complacency, arrogance, "we're the only game in town and nobody else is gonna walk right in an...oh shit!", etc.

There are companies/products not in existence today that, 15 years ago, I never would've thought would go away. That's how quick it can turn.

These outfits better start figuring out a quicker, smoother way to correct course, or they'll just wind up a Trivial Pursuit question/answer 15-20 years down the road. Nobody's immune to going "bye-bye" if circumstances and events out of their control eventually bring it out.

In just one decade Apple pretty much redefined the entire smartphone market, and took down a few behemoths/major players along the way. Their heads are probably still spinning!

The smart money may very well be on them doing the same to the processor/chip racket.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-12-03, 13:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
In just one decade Apple pretty much redefined the entire smartphone market, and took down a few behemoths/major players along the way. Their heads are probably still spinning!

The smart money may very well be on them doing the same to the processor/chip racket.
One decade? Sheesh. Took them one generation.

And processors are next. But, Apple cannot do this one alone. It won't be "Apple designed a new chip and everyone else went bankrupt."

The iPhone was unique to Apple, but ARM is not. However, X86 is Intel's only marketable product that anyone cares about. Without it, they have nothing to keep the top-heavy beast from toppling over and getting sold off (like their modem business).

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-04-29, 11:39

May as well toss this in here.

Now that Windows is available on ARM (Windows 11), how long is it before Wintel is dead?

I suspect we have a few years, but Intel must be sweating bullets. They don't seem to have an answer to this paradigm shift.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2022-04-29, 12:04

Windows (NT) has been on ARM since Windows RT in 2012. Windows CE since the 90s.

The question is whether anyone dares make a product from it. Not just a weird offshoot like the Surface Pro X.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-04-29, 12:14

First, I should have qualified my statement. When I said "Windows" I meant PC's, not pocket thingamabobs or servers.

Second, if Qualcomm doesn't already have manufacturing partners lined up, then why in the hell would they spend billions in R&D making these things? I suspect there will be some ARM-based Windows machines on the market by the beginning of 2024 at the latest.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2022-04-29, 13:56

Well, this CPU is presumably intended for something to rival the MacBook Air — just like the Surface Pro X and Surface RT before. So I don’t see the difference there. I’ve also heard the “this time, we’re fast” thing before from Qualcomm, and, LOL.

As for partners. Sure. Maybe. We’ll see.

A lot would have to happen. Third-party developer tooling still sucks. Everything is still very x86-focused. It’s a chicken-and-egg thing, and only Apple is bold enough to sidestep that sort of thing by going all in.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2022-04-29, 14:32

Hard to find data so far.

There's the 8cx Gen 3, which sports a supposed 85% CPU improvement and is supposedly shipping any day now. That sounds like a big improvement, but really just puts it at just about even with Intel Tiger Lake-UP3 from fall 2020. Not with the M1, nor Alder Lake, nor anything either Apple or Intel will have by late 2023…
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2022-04-30, 10:11

X86/x64 are going to die, just a matter of time. The question is what are Intel/AMD doing to face that reality. On the surface, nothing, but behind closed doors, who knows.
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My 'ls' is broken! colivigan Genius Bar 8 2006-12-06 09:39
Broken LCD Windowsrookie AppleOutsider 18 2006-06-25 12:03
Intel website makes note of new 'Intel Macs'... seashellz2 Apple Products 0 2006-01-10 16:33
Broken key on PB RTB Genius Bar 4 2005-02-15 14:10


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2022, AppleNova