[chucker]

Originally Posted by turtle I have to say, though I am conservative and voted that way, I'm appalled by the actions and inactions of Trump. I can't believe we have been able to sit and watch the mob run through the Capitol and spit on America that way. That is not the actions of people trying to do the right thing or even stand up for truth. That was nothing more than a mob of whining and crying idiots. Hopefully those who broke the law will be held accountable. It is truly saddening to see the honorable places in our country's governance be disgraced like this.

Thank you.

[Dr. Bobsky]

At this point Frank is just playing sophmoric games with poorly defined concepts and stretching the definition of words to suit his purpose. It's the type of argument I would expect from a person indoctrinated with tautologies...

[kscherer]

Do I need to break out a religion thread?

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by kscherer Do I need to break out a religion thread?

Not sure. I guess it depends on whether we want to return to directly discussing the riot inside the Capitol.

I think everyone here - liberal and conservative - is in agreement that those idiots should be hunted down and prosecuted hard.

[kscherer]

It's done.

I don't like having to break up threads, but current events are driving discussions all over the place. I suspect that will be the case for the foreseeable future.

Also, the Current State of Things® is not just about capitol riots. This thread can morph into all the partizan, party-idiology, political BS it wants to. I won't split out any political wrangling. However, if it spins off into religion then it will get split into this thread.

And leave the name-calling at the door, folks.

—

Personally, I don't think of politics as a flat line, where there is a "left" and a "right" with some unseen utopia at the far side of one or the other "wing". I see politics as a circle with two points: At the top is "Freedom" and at the bottom is "Slavery". The political parties begin to drift away from each other at the top, where Freedom lives. As they drift, they descend the arcs of the circle toward the bottom. If either side drifts too far, then we arrive at Slavery. My experience within political debate has taught me an important thing: That once your ideology carries you too far in either direction, the momentum will naturally lead to the bottom of the circle.

Right now, both sides are swinging past the point of no return (which one might call the half-way point, or "Liberal" and "Conservative"). We are no longer cooperating—like two river-loggers trying to keep the log from spinning in either direction. And if we're not careful the two are headed for a final clash at the bottom—where the Marxists and Fascists live—and both sides will get dumped into the river.

It won't be good.

I've also learned that neither side believes it has drifted at all. Each believes it is at the top, and tries to spin the circle to prove this. The current state of American politics is riding a fine line between a possible recovery and absolute defeat. And if/when it falls, the United States of America will fall hard. Very hard.

And then we will know what it is like to truly be "poor".

[Quagmire]

Congress needs to use this opportunity to jettison everything that Trump has represented. January 6th has been the culmination of what Trump has been stoking over the past 5 years( counting his campaign) and what the GOP has stepped behind ever since he won the nomination/election in 2016.

People want to say impeachment is just another thing the Dems are using to further divide, but I don't see it that way. It's a clear message what took place after 1/6 and the events and rhetoric that led to it no longer has a place in our government. So I see that talk as sweet irony after they voted to object to the electoral college results. It's finally holding Trump accountable for his behavior after years of GOP defense publicly. This offers a clean break for the GOP from Trumpism. Some are ready for that break. While others either buy into it( those that immediately accused it being antifa instead) or out of fear( fear for their lives, families safety, or career) continue to back Trump.

Plus precedent needs to be set that even though you're about to leave office, you can't commit impeachable offenses and get away with it. So that angle of, " He only has a week left, what's the point?" is also BS. It prevents scorched earth exit. Presidents should be able to be held accountable all the way to January 20th at 11:59 am.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by Quagmire ... Plus precedent needs to be set that even though you're about to leave office, you can't commit impeachable offenses and get away with it. So that angle of, " He only has a week left, what's the point?" is also BS. It prevents scorched earth exit. Presidents should be able to be held accountable all the way to January 20th at 11:59 am.

I have a really hard time arguing or disagreeing with you here. I guess I'm still in shock that this even happened.

[Quagmire]

Just saw this that could have been the night before?

https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/...8990%2Fpage-36

If it was the night before..... How did they get access inside? There are no public tours.

EDIT: That vid certainly backs up this report from CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sot-nr-vpx.cnn

[709]

FBI executes search warrant on former President's home.

Seems newsworthy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[turtle]

I know my conservative buddies want to defend him and blame the "liberal justice system" for singling him out, but man this is seeming like a stretch. I get that he wasn't liked, but the have a full raid on his house makes one think there might be more to this we just don't know about. I don't think he was Nixon, but still does make one question what he is really being targeted for.

From the article it looks like it isn't related to his role in Jan 6th but rather taking classified documents to his personal house. That is a big no-no for anyone in the government. Chain of custody and all, your personal residence is never in that chain.

I will say though, I do question how much of this is a big show to try to keep him from running for President again.

[Brad]

Is this unprecedented? Did Nixon's home get searched for Watergate documents or anything like that?

[Matsu]

It's not unprecedented. The Supreme court ordered Nixon to release Whitehouse documents/tapes. The Whitehouse was technically his home, and Nixon, for all other warts, was probably following the rules surrounding preservation of presidential documents.

Trump is different because in the office of president Trump himself is an unprecedented con man who has made a mockery of presidential conventions and the republic's laws. However, because congress (both republican and democrat) was by equal turns corrupt and/or weak, they did little to challenge him. Additionally, the institutions whose functions might be called to aid the checks and balances against unfettered abuse, were equally weak. The justice system failed its responsibilities to investigate a host of abuses. Emoluments? The Supreme Court? Absent... I could go on, but one has to be turning a willfully blind eye to the very likely possibility that Trump sought directly to overthrow an election, to sew a violent insurrection while keeping a pretense of distance, and if so, conspired to cover his own direct involvement.

If they don't investigate him, and search all of his person/assets/businesses/associates, in search of the truth of those events, then why do they exist at all?

[709]

Originally Posted by turtle I will say though, I do question how much of this is a big show to try to keep him from running for President again.

Nothing here will legally keep him from running for President again – he could run from prison if he wanted to.

Originally Posted by Matsu . . . and Nixon, for all other warts, was probably following the rules surrounding preservation of presidential documents.

And yesterday was the anniversary of his resignation. 🤔

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Matsu It's not unprecedented. The Supreme court ordered Nixon to release Whitehouse documents/tapes. The Whitehouse was technically his home, and Nixon, for all other warts, was probably following the rules surrounding preservation of presidential documents.

That's a good point. Somehow I forgot that Trump is the only recent president who didn't really treat the White House as his home.

(Reports suggest he spent about 1/3rd of his presidency in Trump-owned or branded properties.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...nded-property/

Over the course of his presidency, Trump has visited a Trump-owned or branded property on three out of every 10 days. Slightly more: Of the 1,075 days on which he has been president, he has visited Mar-a-Lago or a Trump Something-or-other on 331 of them, 31 percent of the time. Barring a sudden change of heart late Monday, he’ll spend at least part of Dec. 31 at Mar-a-Lago, too. That means he will have visited a Trump property on 117 days in 2019, the same number as in 2017.

[drewprops]

People who believe in Trump may never abandon him. As an example, a beloved relative (who was a good man with strong moral compass) still believed (decades later) that Nixon had been doing the right thing with his off-books investigation of the Democrats because of the Cold War and the lack of caution the counterculture displayed (to name a few).

Politics is religion, for some.

...

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by drewprops Politics is religion, for some.

FTFY.

[turtle]

It is interesting to skim articles from both sides of the political spectrum on the raid on Trump. The blue side says he deserved it and the red says it is unjustified and a plot.

I'm personally leaning to the middle on this. Some level of justification while some being people who don't like him going to extremes. This too will be interesting to see how it plays out after the details emerge.

[Matsu]

Politics is not religion, it’s tribalism. Partisans from both sides of the spectrum can be faulted for effectively recasting politics in general as shorthand for “identity politics.” But these identities often have less to do with the content of the ideas and principles at stake as they do with a gratifying form of self-confirming signals about the differences between us and them. Lazy politicians (and an army of consultants) who aren’t interested in challenging anyone’s ideas in general, and certainly not internally (for fear of offending their base) resort to baiting the other guy and trying to pass that off as asking the hard questions.

[kieran]

Just imagine what those agents needed to put into that warrant application in order to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant to go into a former President's home. I doubt it will ever be fully released, but that would be a fascinating document.

I don't know how to feel about this. It could end up galvanizing support for Trump and get the entire base of his supporters to get even more fervent, or it could finally close the loop on Trump as the head of the Republican Party.

There have been so many times that people have said "This is it. He's done." and this is yet another one of those times, but who knows at this point...

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Brad Is this unprecedented? Did Nixon's home get searched for Watergate documents or anything like that?

Originally Posted by Matsu It's not unprecedented.

"I share the deep concern of millions of Americans over the unprecedented search of the personal residence of President Trump. No former President of the United States has ever been subject to a raid of their personal residence in American history." - Mike Pence

Originally Posted by Brad That's a good point. Somehow I forgot that Trump is the only recent president who didn't really treat the White House as his home.

Biden also spends a lot of time at his Delaware home. Who he meets with there is a mystery.

Originally Posted by Matsu Politics is not religion, it’s tribalism.

It mostly rests on ideology and worldview though, so I think it's a bit of both.

Originally Posted by kieran Just imagine what those agents needed to put into that warrant application in order to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant to go into a former President's home. I doubt it will ever be fully released, but that would be a fascinating document.

See, this would have been a good argument if the world hadn't already seen Democratic operatives use their own opposition research resources to launder a host of lies [aka the Steele Dossier] in front of a judge to get wiretaps on their political opposition.

Given that the FBI's choice of judge is particularly interesting, I'm betting that the warrant will be a source of controversy until its contents get leaked.

Originally Posted by kieran It could end up galvanizing support for Trump and get the entire base of his supporters to get even more fervent, or it could finally close the loop on Trump as the head of the Republican Party.

I'm guessing they hoped Trump would declare his candidacy early because of this, turning the midterms into a referendum on him and sparing Democrats some of the shellacking they are about to receive. So far Trump doesn't seem to have taken the bait, though his ego might still do him in.

Raiding a former President's home over the Presidential Records Act is ridiculous overkill and only confirms that all this is just a pretext to prevent him from running again. Which it likely is. Left wingers will defend the move as aggressively procedural, and right wingers will continue to raise the Banana Republic arguments.

But U.S. Centrists/Independents are the key, and I can't seem them going along with targeted political opposition raids.

[709]

Originally Posted by kieran Just imagine what those agents needed to put into that warrant application in order to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant to go into a former President's home. I doubt it will ever be fully released, but that would be a fascinating document.

A Trump appointed judge and a Trump appointed FBI director at that. It's got to be bigger than just withholding classified documents from the National Archives. The warrant will leak (or Trump could just release it) soon enough.

I'm not sure who put out this talking point that this happened to 'prevent Trump from running again' - that is the absolute best thing that could happen for Democrats.

[PB PM]

Left and right wing nut jobs going crazy over this, where’s the popcorn?

Trump, the gift that keeps on giving.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by PB PM Left and right wing nut jobs going crazy over this, where’s the popcorn? Trump, the gift that keeps on giving.

Got to give them a bone to fight over.

[709]

[turtle]

Originally Posted by 709

So true.

[Brad]

Trump declines to answer questions in N.Y. attorney general investigation (Reuters)

"I declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution," Trump said in a statement issued roughly an hour after he arrived in a motorcade at the attorney general's office in lower Manhattan for the deposition behind closed doors.

But also Trump speaking previously about the Fifth at various events over the last decade:

Taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?

Fifth Amendment. Fifth Amendment. Fifth Amendment. Horrible. Horrible.

"I want the Fifth Amendment. I want immunity." The reason they get immunity is because they did something wrong. If they didn't do anything wrong, they don't think in terms of immunity.

And if you're not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for, right?

He pleaded the Fifth Amendment. What are we gonna do with this guy? What happened? He pleaded the Fifth. Right? He pleaded the Fifth. Where is he? This is like a third-world country, folks. It's terrible. This is really — if we bring it up — this is like Watergate, only it's worse.

It's worse than Watergate. It's a bigger deal than Watergate. So many people took the Fifth Amendment, there was nobody left. They all got immunity deals.

[kscherer]

In fairness, everyone is taught to laugh about the 5th Amendment — until they're the ones in the hot seat. And then suddenly it's your best friend. Every half-way decent defense attorney — and I mean ALL of them — will tell you to exercise your 5th Amendment rights and not talk. EVER! But, we're all taught to laugh and point fingers at those who plead the 5th. It is literally taught to us! Every one of us. Except for defense attorneys, who have to plead with their clients to keep their mouths shut! From the time we're little kids we're taught that pleading the 5th means we must be guilty of something, which is entirely, 100% wrong! That's not what the 5th Amendment is there for. Please educate yourselves!

"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." Not "may", or "might", or "maybe", but anything you say will be used against you! The government can and will use your words against you, even if they have to twist and distort those words.

Example: A man breaks into your home intent on robbing you and raping your wife. You shoot the man in self defense. The cops arrive and ask you what happened. Most people are taught to tell the police every detail, and many will embellish. Some might even say something dumb like, "I shot him before he could get away!" (and you're now likely going to prison because you opened your stupid mouth). A good defense attorney will tell you to say this: "I would like to exercise my 5th Amendment right and I refuse to answer any questions without the presence of my attorney." And off to jail you go. Your attorney will pat you on the back, say "job well done" and then coach you from that point on. Once you have told the police this, they are not legally allowed to continue to interrogate you. They know this, but they also know that if you start squawking that whatever spills from your mouth is fair game. DO. NOT. TALK!

And all of these political gods say the same jackassery. Nothing new. Over the last 20 years I've witnessed more political point-switching by the parties than at any other time in history. It's good until it isn't, and then it's bad until it's good.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by kscherer In fairness, everyone is taught to laugh about the 5th Amendment

I disagree on this point. I haven't, and I don't think I've known anyone IRL who acts like the Fifth is a joke. Any political leader in this country — left, right, or center — who so openly devalues it in order to pander to their base should be ashamed, and that this guy is now pleading the Fifth is just delivering a galactic size dose of schadenfreude.

[709]

Originally Posted by kscherer "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

The difference is that the NYAG investigation is civil, not criminal, so taking the Fifth in that case can backfire, as the court can instruct the jury that it can draw an 'adverse inference' - that is, not answering the question means that he's totes guilty.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Brad I disagree on this point. I haven't, and I don't think I've known anyone IRL who acts like the Fifth is a joke.

Until someone you don't like does it, and then you're pre-programmed to assume their guilt.

Originally Posted by 709 The difference is that the NYAG investigation is civil, not criminal, so taking the Fifth in that case can backfire, as the court can instruct the jury that it can draw an 'adverse inference' - that is, not answering the question means that he's totes guilty.

That's correct, and the Constitution supports it.

And it's a weirdly hypocritical thing.